Huhne, Hemming, Howarth and Hughes quiz Smith re 'Greengate'

11.05.30am GMT Fri 5th Dec 2008

• Chris Huhne (Eastleigh) (LD): I AM concerned at the new principle that the Home Secretary appears to be setting out that the leaking of information from the Government is in all circumstances something to be deplored.

The reality is that the House's formal procedures for holding the Executive to account are so weak that the hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Mr. Mitchell) has described them from the Government Benches as like "heckling the steamroller". In the circumstances where this Parliament is a constitutional poodle by comparison with other Parliaments in the western democratic world, it is essential that other means of having checks and balances are there.

The leaking of information has a long and honourable precedent. Let me, for example, cite the official in the Secret Intelligence Service, called Desmond Morton, who briefed the then Back Bencher, Sir Winston Churchill, about the gathering threat of German rearmament. That was an essential part of the pressure put on the appeasement Governments of the day to take account of the threat to national security. So even matters of national security may, it seems to me, be justified as leaks to hold the Government to account.

In this case, will the Home Secretary confirm that she was merely concerned about a potential breach of national security and that there were no actual breaches of national security? The elision in her answer was very clear to any Opposition Member, and she needs to clarify her position. She is also unclear in her statement whether Sir David Normington told her, after she was informed by the police, that there would be a search of the premises of an hon. Member and whether she was then concerned. If not, why not? Again, in her answer, she elides between the arrest and the search. Surely, if the police were informing her most senior official-I assume that her most senior official informed her-that, in fact, a search was impending, that should have been enough to ring alarm bells with the Home Secretary.

Does the Home Secretary agree at the very least that the police action in this matter should cause us, as a House, as a Parliament and as a legislature, to reopen the issue of taking away responsibility for the security of the House from the Serjeant at Arms, since a clear principle is at stake? Does she now agree that the muddle in which she has landed herself in this case should be clarified, not least with a parliamentary privileges Bill-as recommended by a cross-party Committee nearly 10 years ago-a civil service Bill to ensure that our civil service is as impartial as it should be, and is always protected from undue political pressure, and a Bill to restore protection for whistleblowers who act in the public interest? We need to bring back the protections for whistleblowers that the Government and their predecessor abolished.

Jacqui Smith: The hon. Gentleman started off with an impassioned defence of leaking. I have argued-and I think that I have made it clear in my statement today-that I believe that the role of Members of this Parliament in using information that they gain access to, certainly in some of the circumstances to which the hon. Gentleman has referred, has happened, should happen and will continue to happen. That is an important element in the accountability of Government in this country. But it is also absolutely right that, if civil servants believe that the activity of their Government Department is unethical or improper, they should have a route through which they are able to take that issue up. That is why the Home Office has a clearly communicated whistleblower policy through which civil servants are able to raise issues of concern, including externally with the Civil Service Commissioner, and why this Government ?4 Dec 2008 : Column 140?have put in place the Act covering the disclosure of public information referred to by my right hon. and learned Friend the Leader of the House, to give further protection to individuals in those circumstances.

In this case, however, we were concerned about a potential systematic series of leaks. The original leak inquiries-which took place when it was not clear who was responsible, or whether it was one person or more than one-did involve, in the reference from the Cabinet Office, issues that related to national security, as of course does the work of the Home Office. For the hon. Gentleman to phrase his question as to whether we were "merely" concerned about a possible leak of national security, represents an underestimation of the significance of our role in safeguarding the information that we deal with.

In relation to the hon. Gentleman's specific questions about action between search and arrest, I was not informed about the search of the hon. Member's office until after both the search and the arrest had taken place.

• . . John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD): The Home Secretary may be interested to know that, following the Government's example of using the criminal law to persecute Opposition politicians for being too effective, the States of Jersey have initiated a criminal investigation into Senator Stuart Syvret, which should cause grave concern because of the situation in Jersey. Has the Home Secretary had any advice as to which elements of leaked information were covered by the Freedom of Information Act and the fact that the civil servant would have had a duty to reveal that information? Does she find it a little odd that one faces a criminal investigation for revealing certain information that one has a duty to reveal?

Jacqui Smith: Although the hon. Gentleman's point was very broad, covering a range of cases, I listened with interest. He made some important points, which I am sure people will want to return to, not least as part of the accounts that are being done here.

• . . David Howarth (Cambridge) (LD): Does the Home Secretary not accept that there is a vast difference between threatening to sack someone for breach of confidentiality and setting the criminal law attack dogs on them? Is she saying that because the Home Office deals with some matters of national security, any leak from the Home Office is now a criminal matter-even though we know that in this case no real matters of national security were at stake?

Jacqui Smith: Once again, I have to say that a Member is claiming a greater knowledge of the evidence than he can possibly have. When there has been systematic leaking and internal leak inquiries have not been able to discover its source, at a certain point I do believe it appropriate to ask the police for their assistance in that investigation.

• . . Simon Hughes (North Southwark and Bermondsey) (LD): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Can you confirm that the House has power, if necessary and on matters of national security, to go into private session, as it did during the war, for example, to be briefed by the Prime Minister? Secondly, given that we have heard a ruling from the European Court this morning which says that the retention of DNA samples is not legal, can you ask the Home Secretary before she begins her contribution to the following debate when she will announce the Government's response to that? That matter appears to be relevant to the case of the hon. Member for Ashford (Damian Green).

Mr. Speaker: The second point is not a point of order. The hon. Gentleman can seek that information from the Home Secretary at any time through the various facilities we have. On his other point, the House can sit in private if it deems it necessary.

• . . Damian Green (Ashford) (Con): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I invite the Home Secretary to correct a factual inaccuracy in her statement. She said that I was arrested "on suspicion of conspiring to commit misconduct in a public office and aiding and abetting, counselling or procuring misconduct in a public office." I have a copy of my arrest warrant here, and the phrase "counselling or procuring misconduct in a public office" does not occur. I was not arrested for counselling or procuring misconduct in a public office. She will understand the seriousness of her mistake, and I invite her to withdraw those words immediately.

Mr. Speaker: I ask the Home Secretary to reply.

Jacqui Smith: I would certainly be prepared to take that up with the Metropolitan police-[Hon. Members: "Oh!"]

Mr. Speaker: Order. Hon. Members should allow the Home Secretary to answer in the way that she wants to answer. It is not for me to tell the Home Secretary-or any other hon. Member-how she should answer. Home Secretary, have you anything to add?

Jacqui Smith: I was quoting from a public statement made by the Metropolitan police on 28 November.