Foster, Öpik, Webb, Thurso, Smith, Williams, Moore and Willis quiz Bradshaw on Digital Britain

10.33.42am BST (GMT +0100) Tue 23rd Jun 2009

• [Jun 16] Don Foster (Bath, Liberal Democrat): ENSURING the success of our creative economies will be critical in rebuilding our economy, as the Secretary of State says. I hope that he would accept that we have a lot of ground to make up.

His statement is a step in the right direction, but too many issues remain unresolved, such as the possible merger of Channel 4 and BBC Worldwide, and the inclusion of a return path in digital boxes. Why, for example, has he not even addressed the issue of the governance of the BBC? Surely we need an independent body, not a regulator that remains within the BBC. However, it is welcome that we now know who is to classify video games, that tax breaks for that industry are now on the agenda, and that we at last have a date for switchover to digital radio.

As the Secretary of State said, protecting intellectual property, such as that in films or music, is vital. Millions of pounds are lost through illegal file sharing, and it must end. New commercial models, such as yesterday's welcome announcement of the deal between Universal and Virgin, will help, but I believe that the proposed statutory measures are needed, too. However, can he explain whether internet service providers will have legal indemnification for taking the action that they will be required to take, and who will bear the costs? Does he at least acknowledge that, now that they have delayed action in that area, there is very little chance that the Government will meet their 2008 promise to cut illegal file sharing by 70 per cent. within two or three years?

Overall, the proposals for broadband have a far greater reach than many people expected, but I hope that the Secretary of State will accept that those in remote rural areas will be disappointed, as they will have to wait until at least 2017 before they get the benefits of super-fast broadband. Should not far more be done to drive forward initiatives such as smart metering, e-democracy and digital health care, to stimulate end user demand, and hence investment? Given the real fall in the cost of telecommunications, the proposed levy on all fixed lines to pay for near universal super-fast broadband is imaginative and broadly welcome, but even though it is a small sum, it is still a poll tax, so I hope that he will consider possible exemptions, not least for pensioners.

Finally, I strongly welcome the plans to support regional and local news. I have no problem with the BBC's involvement in that, any more than with its role in helping with the roll-out of broadband, but I am deeply concerned about how that is to happen. The Secretary of State has avoided calling it top-slicing of the licence fee, but that is what it is. Whatever the language used, top-slicing sets a precedent that undermines the BBC's independence. What guarantees can we have that in future the Government of the day, especially when they are unhappy with something that the BBC is doing, will not take money from the licence fee to fund their pet projects? Surely the BBC should be involved at all stages, through the establishment of a partnership fund within the BBC, and a clear remit for the BBC to engage in such partnerships. Overall, there has been some good progress, but with 11 or 12 more consultations still to come, there is clearly much still to do.

Ben Bradshaw (Minister of State (Health Services; Minister for the South West), Department of Health; Exeter, Labour): There was a lot in that question. Let me begin with the hon. Gentleman's last point, because it was related to his first, about the governance structure of the BBC. His idea of a partnership fund is interesting, and is related to the point that he made at the beginning about the governance framework for the BBC, which is only two and a half years old; we have had an exchange in the Chamber about that previously. It is certainly a proposal that I invite and encourage him to make as part of his party's response to the consultation.

The reason why I do not like the term top-slicing is that I think that most people out there cannot picture in their head what it means. If we talk about sharing something, it is more obvious what is meant; I think that that is a better way of describing the proposal. We will, through legislation if necessary, ensure that the proposal relates to a contained percentage of any future licence fee settlement.

I welcome the hon. Gentleman's welcome for the measures to protect regional and local news. I note that he describes the levy as "imaginative", and I also welcome his welcome for that. I can assure him that we are considering exemptions for vulnerable people; again, he and other hon. Members may wish to make that suggestion clear in their response to the consultation.

It is not just people who live in rural areas who are disadvantaged now and will be in future when the roll-out of next generation broadband happens. There are clusters in some urban areas and in quite a lot of market towns of people who are equally disadvantaged. They will be helped in the meantime by what we have announced today about the mobile phone spectrum, so I hope they will not have to wait until 2017 for the comprehensive improvement in the service that the hon. Gentleman describes. They will certainly be in a much better place, thanks to the announcement that we have made today about using the fund to help support the spread of broadband elsewhere.

The hon. Gentleman made one other point, which I am afraid I have forgotten, but I will write to him about it.

• . . Lembit Öpik (Montgomeryshire, Liberal Democrat): Is the Minister aware that Michael Grade has said in the past four years that

"the idea of contestability, of top-slicing the licence fee . . . would break the clear and well-understood line of accountability between the BBC and the licence-fee payer. . . It would pose a threat to the political independence of the BBC, handing a punitive fiscal sword of Damocles to any unscrupulous government".

If the former head of the BBC and current head of ITV has publicly and passionately opposed top-slicing in the past four years, why on earth do the Government take a different view?

Ben Bradshaw (Minister of State (Health Services; Minister for the South West), Department of Health; Exeter, Labour): I do not agree with him.

Michael Martin (Speaker): Is that it already?

• . . Steve Webb (Northavon, Liberal Democrat): Given the rapid speed of technological progress, the goal of 2 megabits per second, although it would be manna from heaven today, is likely to look obsolete in three years' time, especially if two thirds of the country is getting 20 or 25 times that speed. Should not the universal service goal be much more ambitious given not where we are now but where we are likely to be in three years' time?

Ben Bradshaw (Minister of State (Health Services; Minister for the South West), Department of Health; Exeter, Labour): We have gone for 2 megabits per second because we had to decide what was the best value for money in terms of the investment that is required for today's technology. What we will achieve by 2012 will be at or near the level of the best in Europe, but, as is acknowledged in the report, at the same time we need to get a move on with next generation broadband to ensure that that is universal. The two developments will be running in parallel. There will always be a trade-off in the amount of resources that we commit to ensuring a better, more capable service for today's broadband, and we think that that is about the right level. It is probably sensible to aim at the level at which one can, for example, download iPlayer.

• . . John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland & Easter Ross, Liberal Democrat): The Secretary of State rightly said that if it were left to the market, a third of the country would not receive super-fast broadband; I rather suspect that my part of the world would be part of that third. Is he aware that many remote rural economies have been built on new age connectivity, with call centres, ISDN links and so forth? Can he therefore give an assurance that the last third will not be left until last, since those fragile economies depend on competitive connectivity for their economic future?

Ben Bradshaw (Minister of State (Health Services; Minister for the South West), Department of Health; Exeter, Labour): We will have to wait to see what bids we get from the consortiums who will be opening up the bidding for the work. However, there is no reason why the hon. Gentleman's part of the world will be left until very last; that will very much depend on the quality and intention of the bids that we receive. As I have emphasised several times, without our willing the means to fund this, he would be left with a problem, and so would his constituents.

. . Alistair Carmichael (Orkney & Shetland, Liberal Democrat): I welcome two aspects of today's report: the principle of a universal service obligation for broadband, albeit limited to 2 megabits, and the recognition of the link between economic prosperity and broadband provision. If the Government are serious about that link, why is the Secretary of State prepared to leave some of the most economically fragile communities until 2017 before they are allowed to get a piece of the action?

Ben Bradshaw (Minister of State (Health Services; Minister for the South West), Department of Health; Exeter, Labour): We are not doing that. As I made clear, we will ensure that the guarantee for today's technology is rolled out to everybody by 2012, and the next generation will start concurrently. Our proposals for mobile spectrum should also help many of the hon. Gentleman's constituents. Bearing in mind the remote nature of the constituencies that he and some other hon. Members represent, he will find that our ambition and time scale is at the top rather than the bottom end of international expectation.

• . . Robert Smith (Aberdeenshire West & Kincardine, Liberal Democrat): The Secretary of State said that digital radio would be the primary platform by 2015. What reassurance can he give the many constituents who rely on the analogue signal about how long it will remain for their use?

Ben Bradshaw (Minister of State (Health Services; Minister for the South West), Department of Health; Exeter, Labour): It will remain on FM for some of the new local and community radio provision that I outlined. We will consider providing help in the same way in which we did for digital television switchover. However, when we take into account the way the prices for digital radios are decreasing, and people's behaviour in the past with digital switchover for television and the change from black and white to colour television, I suspect that we will find that many people are already listening to digital radio. May I suggest to the hon. Gentleman that, rather than a lot of useless jumpers for his family at Christmas, he buy them a digital radio each? That will help along the way.

• . . Roger Williams (Brecon & Radnorshire, Liberal Democrat): A number of hon. Members believe that rural communities will be at the end of the queue when it comes to sharing the benefits of IT. However, in Scotland, a new technology is being tested called broadband extension technology, which would mean that people living 17 km from an exchange could achieve the minimum guarantee. Will the Minister ensure that that technology is developed as fully as possible and rolled out as soon as possible?

Ben Bradshaw (Minister of State (Health Services; Minister for the South West), Department of Health; Exeter, Labour): I will happily look at the technology that the hon. Gentleman has mentioned and reflect that as part of the consultation.

• . . Michael Moore (Berwickshire, Roxburgh & Selkirk, Liberal Democrat): After 12 years of this Government's broadcasting policy, my constituents are still left with a second-class mobile phone network and, having switched over to digital television, half of them are now getting the second-class "Freeview Lite" service. Although I, too, welcome the new commitment to super-fast broadband across the whole country, will the Secretary of State give us an assurance that he will not lose sight of the existing problems in rural areas?

Ben Bradshaw (Minister of State (Health Services; Minister for the South West), Department of Health; Exeter, Labour): Yes, certainly. I will undertake to write to the hon. Gentleman about the specific problems that he has just raised.

• . . Phil Willis (Harrogate & Knaresborough, Liberal Democrat): On the copyright tribunal, there are some very interesting recommendations-hidden away in the report-on orphaned works and collecting organisations' ability to re-license them. Will the Secretary of State tell the House, first, where that re-licensing money will go and, secondly, why he has gone for a self-regulating ombudsman rather than a statutory body?

Ben Bradshaw (Minister of State (Health Services; Minister for the South West), Department of Health; Exeter, Labour): I shall have to write to the hon. Gentleman with the answers to those two questions.

Related Link:

• Full Debate in Parliament