Davey on Europe

11.10.25am GMT Sat 5th Dec 2009

• [Dec 03] Edward Davey (Kingston & Surbiton, Liberal Democrat): ' . . I . . BELIEVE that we should have a special Question Time for European affairs . . [which] do not relate simply to the FCO, so it is important that we have more frequent chances to question Ministers on them on the Floor of the House . . '

First, I apologise to the House for the fact that I will not be here for the winding-up speeches.

I hope that this will not be the last European affairs debate before the election, because it is important that we debate European issues as much as possible. I agree with Michael Connarty that we need to improve the scrutiny of European matters in the House, so I welcome these debates. I actually believe that we should have a special Question Time for European affairs, which can get lost in Foreign and Commonwealth Office questions. Nowadays European affairs do not relate simply to the FCO, so it is important that we have more frequent chances to question Ministers on them on the Floor of the House.

This is a significant moment for the European Union, with the Lisbon treaty coming into force. It enables the EU to put institutional wranglings behind it and deal with issues of substance. This month we will see that it is able to lead at the Copenhagen summit. The Minister touched on that in some detail, and I strongly agree with his remarks. The Lisbon treaty and the developments in the EU over a period of years have enabled it to show strong leadership, which we hope will enable at least a political agreement to be reached at Copenhagen. Leadership in the global economy is also important, and the EU can provide both by agreeing among the 27 member states and through some of those member states going to meetings such as the G20. It is now more able to show the leadership that the world needs.

This is also a significant time for European policy within British politics. One party, the Conservative party, will probably have the most anti-European general election manifesto of any party since the Labour party in 1983, when it wanted to pull out of the EU: it could not get more anti-European than that. It appears that there will be a debate at the coming election about the future of Britain in Europe, not least because of the position that the Conservative party has taken.

I wish to deal first with the European dimension and the issues of substance at the European Council in recent times.

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Mark Francois (Shadow Minister (Europe), Foreign Affairs; Rayleigh, Conservative): The hon. Gentleman mentioned manifestos. I am sure that he will be aware that on Tuesday, a previous leader of his party, Sir Menzies Campbell announced on The Daily Politics that the Liberal Democrats had abandoned their policy of an in-out referendum on the EU. That was backed up, when chased by the BBC, by a party spokesman, who is quoted as saying that it was now a "completely different political landscape", and that as a "pro-European party" they wanted to concentrate on making the Lisbon treaty work. Can the hon. Gentleman confirm whether the Liberal Democrats have abandoned the in-out referendum?

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Edward Davey: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that intervention, although he did not let me in when I wanted to intervene on him. I shall speak about that matter in some detail, but I will tell him in advance that the BBC website was inaccurate on two counts, and I am happy to allay his fears that our position has changed. I give him advance notice that I shall want to find out how he defines "cast-iron".

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Mark Francois (Shadow Minister (Europe), Foreign Affairs; Rayleigh, Conservative): Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

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Edward Davey: No, the hon. Gentleman can come in later when I deal with that issue.

The Minister was right to talk about the matters for discussion in Europe being jobs and growth. We also need to discuss climate change, external relations and co-ordination on crime. The implementation of Lisbon, though, will inevitably dominate over the next few months, and we have seen some of the initial decisions on it. We strongly welcome the appointment of Baroness Cathy Ashton, who is well qualified for her post. I would say to the Government, though, that the Foreign Secretary was ill advised to talk about wanting to see a European President who could stop the traffic in Beijing, Moscow, Washington and so on. That is not what he told the House when he was trying to get the Lisbon legislation through, when the Government talked about the roles of European President and High Representative as being chairmanship roles. It was wrong of him to be so inconsistent when it came to the appointments to those posts. I have to say that he was completely unsuccessful with respect to the former Prime Minister-and like Mr. Francois, we are delighted that he was.

The European External Action Service is incredibly important, and as I said in an intervention, while I have no doubt that Cathy Ashton will ensure that she represents the whole EU, the fact that she comes from Britain, with our experience and expertise, is most welcome in the setting up of such as system.

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Chris Bryant (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Foreign and Commonwealth Office; Rhondda, Labour): I just want to congratulate the hon. Gentleman and his group on securing so many Commissioners. Despite there not being 10 liberal Governments in Europe, they managed to secure 10 liberal Commissioners.

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Edward Davey: I am grateful. That is in strong contrast to the group in the European Parliament that the Conservative party is in; I think that is the point that the Minister wanted me to make in response to his intervention.

I turn to economic issues, and particularly financial services, which have been of interest in the past few days. There has been concern in the press, which the hon. Member for Rayleigh rightly mentioned, about the French Commissioner Michel Barnier being appointed to the directorate-general of the internal market. Colleagues in the House and outside are right to raise concerns, but my only request is that they do not overdo them. First, the top civil servant in that directorate-general who will advise Michel Barnier is a Brit, Jonathan Faull, so there will be a British representative at the table when things are discussed.

As one Conservative Member rightly pointed out, the chairman of the internal market committee in the European Parliament is Malcolm Harbour. I concur with others who have said that he is a very good Member of the European Parliament and that he represents British interests extremely well, albeit from a Conservative position. I believe that co-decision making-no doubt the Tories opposed that when it was proposed, but it is in place-will enable the committee to have a real say and to prevent the introduction of measures that are against the City's interests. I would also point to a Liberal Democrat MEP, Sharon Bowles, who is chair of the economic and monetary affairs committee, which also deals with matters that affect the City. She is extremely strong. She is extremely well respected in the City and across Europe for standing up not only for British interests, but for a sensible single market in financial services.

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Malcolm Moss (North East Cambridgeshire, Conservative): The hon. Gentleman mentioned Mr. Faull, who indeed has experience. He has worked for the Commission for about 30 years-but does he know anything about the workings of the City of London or financial matters?

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Edward Davey: The House will not be surprised to know that I do not know the full CV of the civil servant Jonathan Faull, but the issue-at least, this seems to concern other Conservative Members-is surely whether the British interest will be heard. Clearly, Jonathan Faull is a British civil servant.

The other reason why I think people are getting a little bit overheated over Michel Barnier is that one person does not decide the laws in Europe. The Commission itself contains checks and balances-Commissioners have to agree before directives are put forward. The directives then have to go through the Council and the Parliament. With the co-decision process and with Brits chairing the two key parliamentary committees, I think we can be relatively reassured. If people are in any doubt about the power of the Parliament, I refer them to the draft directive on hedge funds-the alternative investment fund management directive-which has understandably caused a lot of consternation.

The draft directive went to the European Parliament, and the economic and monetary affairs committee, which is chaired by a Liberal Democrat MEP, commissioned, and in recent weeks published, a damning report on it, saying that the impact assessment that the Commission put forward was unacceptable. My colleague Sharon Bowles is leading the fight to ensure that the directive is not passed in its current form. That is the way we do business in this House, and the way people in the European Parliament do business-giving proper scrutiny to draft legislation. I again implore people not simply to listen to some of the British press when they are screeching, but to look at the actual facts. There are checks and balances, and they are working.

I shall conclude my remarks on that issue by talking about Michel Barnier. I do not think it does the British interest any service if we dismiss someone who actually has quite a good track record, just because he is French; that really would be extremely narrow-minded. I think that we ought to be getting used to French politicians, particularly President Sarkozy, grandstanding, and we should look at the reality of what happens afterwards, which amounts to much less than the rhetoric that sometimes comes out of the Elysée palace. I am not saying that we should not be on our guard, but there are checks and balances in the system that prevent one person from railroading legislation that would undermine our interests.

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Mark Harper (Shadow Minister (Disabled People), Work and Pensions; Forest of Dean, Conservative): Perhaps I could refer back to a point I raised earlier. To be fair, the hon. Gentleman has been very clear on the role of the nationality of the individuals involved, as was the Minister. However, the hon. Gentleman has now mentioned national leaders grandstanding. The Prime Minister said that Baroness Ashton's appointment as High Representative would give Britain a powerful voice within the Council and the Commission and ensure that Britain's voice was heard. Both the hon. Gentleman and the Minister have confirmed in this debate that the appointment will do no such thing, because Baroness Ashton represents not Britain, but the Commission and the Council-she speaks not for Britain, but for them. The hon. Gentleman and the Minister have been honest about that, but the Prime Minister has not.

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Edward Davey: I do not think I am here to defend statements by the Prime Minister, and I am certainly not going to do so. My slight retort to the hon. Gentleman is that although Commissioners, the High Representative and the president of the Council represent the European Union-that is their job as part of the community, and that esprit is supposed still to apply-and although they come from certain traditions and political cultures, those are helpful in the way they are likely to their jobs.

I should like briefly to touch on some external relations points, which both the Minister and the hon. Member for Rayleigh rightly mentioned, and on which I think that there is cross-party agreement-those concerning Bosnia, Iran and Cyprus. I strongly agree with the hon. Gentleman about Bosnia. The Liberal Democrats are increasingly concerned about what is happening in Bosnia, and although we understand the Government's approach, we are not quite convinced that it is strong enough. The constitutional attempts, through Butmir, are not bearing much fruit. I think that is partly because the office of the High Representative there is going to be dismantled. Politicians in Republika Srpska, particularly in Dodik, think that they are going to get away with championing new Serb nationalism, acting as a latter day Milosevic. We have to send a very clear signal that the European Union will not allow that to happen. It is important that Members on both sides of the House get the EU to steel itself to objecting to that. We may need to look again at the idea of the abolition of the office of High Representative because of the lack of progress.

What the Minister said about Iran was interesting. It seems as if the British Government are now preparing to argue within the European Union that now is the time for sanctions. If that is the case, it is a serious new development. I am not suggesting that it might be the wrong step, given the announcement by President Ahmadinejad that Iran wants to build 10 new nuclear processing facilities-that is alarming-but some of the experts, including even people connected to the International Atomic Energy Agency, have suggested that Iran has no ability to build those facilities and that the announcement was totally rhetorical. Therefore, in dealing with Iran, we have to know the difference between reality and rhetoric. That is extremely important.

I hope there is still some room and some track left for taking the diplomatic engagement route. As I said during the Queen's Speech debate, the negotiations on where uranium needs to be enriched and processed for the test reactor in Tehran could still bear fruit. If, despite everything, we can still bring Iran to the negotiating table, it would be a better route. I accept that we are running out of road, but it may well be that one last attempt before sanctions are tried is the right approach.

I do not have much to add to what the Minister and the hon. Member for Rayleigh said about Cyprus. All parties wish Presidents Christofias and Talat all the best, and I strongly hope that the British Government and the EU are doing all they can to enable, in the rather narrow window of opportunity that may be left to us, a historic agreement to be reached.

As for the British dimension of European affairs and how it affects policy, I am afraid the Government increasingly have a rather mixed record. I accept that they have done some fantastic things. Unlike the Conservatives, the Liberal Democrats were pleased when they got rid of the British opt-out on the social chapter, and they have been successful in changing their relationships with other European Governments, but I do not think they have managed to change the terms of trade of the debate in this country. I do not level this comment at the Minister, but some of his colleagues have been unwilling to engage in the real debate and put the pro-European case. In two of his most recent speeches, the Foreign Secretary has begun to do that, but he made some silly remarks about stopping the traffic in connection with the President of the European Council. The poor handling of the appointment of the High Representative, about which the hon. Gentleman spent some time talking, did not do us much credit either. The Government have not exactly covered themselves in glory.

The Conservatives have asked about our position on the referendum, and I can tell the hon. Member for Rayleigh that the headline on the BBC website is not accurate. If he looks at the comments made by my right hon. and learned Friend Sir Menzies Campbell, they do not bear out that headline. The spokesman, whom the hon. Gentleman quoted out of context, made it clear that our position remains the same. I hope that that reassures him.

I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman needs help defining "cast iron". Certainly, the dictionaries that I have consulted suggest that it is a guarantee that can be trusted completely, and is rigid, strong and unyielding. It is not subject to change or exception. I am afraid that the "cast iron guarantee" given by the Conservative leader has ignored those definitions.

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Robert Goodwill (Shadow Minister, Transport; Scarborough & Whitby, Conservative): Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

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Edward Davey: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman wants to try to help his leader.

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Robert Goodwill (Shadow Minister, Transport; Scarborough & Whitby, Conservative): Is the hon. Gentleman saying that a Liberal Democrat Government would hold an in-out referendum, and that if the vote were to be no, they would take us out of the European Union? In that case, how can he accuse us of being the most anti-European party?

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Edward Davey: We would of course argue for a yes vote, and we are certain that we would win that. One of the reasons why we have been attracted by this policy is that we actually want to expose the Conservatives, who try to have it both ways. They try to suggest that they are pro-European on some levels and that they want to be part of the European Union, but we all know that many Back Benchers and parliamentary candidates are extremely anti-European and want to pull us out. The Conservatives do not want to face up to that reality.

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Keith Vaz (Leicester East, Labour): rose-

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Mark Harper (Shadow Minister (Disabled People), Work and Pensions; Forest of Dean, Conservative): rose-

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Edward Davey: I give way to Keith Vaz.

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Keith Vaz (Leicester East, Labour): Why is the Conservative party afraid to have an all-singing, all-dancing referendum on whether we stay in the European Union or come out? If they want the public to be engaged in such a debate, that is surely the question that should be put before them.

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Edward Davey: Perhaps Mr. Harper will answer that question.

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Mark Harper (Shadow Minister (Disabled People), Work and Pensions; Forest of Dean, Conservative): I was slightly amused by the hon. Gentleman talking about our being inconsistent and wanting to have things both ways. I remember that during the debates on the Lisbon treaty, we talked about the referendum and I asked him about the Liberal Democrats' 2005 manifesto pledge to support a referendum. He then invented, and explained to the House, the novel concept of constructive abstention, under which they voted one way in this House but could not persuade all their colleagues in the other place to do the same thing. They went back on their promise to have a referendum, which is why the Lisbon treaty has become law. Having a referendum now on the Lisbon treaty would be completely meaningless, because it cannot be unratified. That is the fault of this Government and the hon. Gentleman's party, not ours.

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Edward Davey: Well, there was no definition of "cast iron" in that, nor did it answer the question asked by the right hon. Member for Leicester, East. The Conservatives know that they have a real problem here. They have reneged on their cast-iron guarantee and they know that their party is split down the middle-

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Mark Francois (Shadow Minister (Europe), Foreign Affairs; Rayleigh, Conservative): Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

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Edward Davey: I may give way later, if the hon. Gentleman will be patient. He did not allow me to intervene on him, and I have already allowed him to intervene on me once. I will allow him to intervene a second time shortly-and that is more generous than he was to me.

The Conservatives' present policy has three elements. The first is to have referendums on future treaties, but they have not been clear as to which treaties. If the hon. Gentleman intervenes later, perhaps he will clarify that. Will that policy apply to accession treaties? If there are accession treaties for Croatia, Iceland or Turkey, will they require referendums? As far as we know they will, and it would be bizarre if the enlargement of the European Union and the accession of those countries were to be determined by a referendum. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will be able to answer that question when I allow him to intervene. We want know what the test for a referendum will be. Will it be any change in the European treaties, or just a significant constitutional change? What does the referendum pledge amount to? It is not clear at the moment.

The hon. Gentleman also talked about a sovereignty Bill. He needs to go back to his political textbooks and understand constitutional principles. A state either has parliamentary sovereignty as a constitutional principle or a written constitution. He talks about the German constitutional court as his model, but that court can operate in a meaningful way on European matters because Germany has a written constitution. The Bundestag and the Bundesrat do not have parliamentary sovereignty as we know it in this country. If the Conservative position is not only that they want a sovereignty Bill, but that they want a written constitution, that is a consistent policy, although it is also a major change in the Conservative approach to the constitution-and one that we would welcome. We have advocated the introduction of a written constitution for many years, so we could have a sovereignty Bill that had some meaning. The hon. Gentleman's Bill would be meaningless unless he also wanted a written constitution.

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Chris Bryant (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Foreign and Commonwealth Office; Rhondda, Labour): If a sovereignty Bill meant that the Government could strike down EU legislation, it would be profoundly dangerous because it would effectively mean that Britain was stepping out of the European Union.

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Edward Davey: The Minister makes a fair point. We would be subjugated to the rules of the European Union if the Conservatives were to try to push that policy in the direction that is suggested.

The third element of the new Conservative European policy is the repatriation of powers, and the Conservatives have talked about three such powers. The first relates to the charter of fundamental rights. As I understand it, the Lisbon treaty has a protocol on that and it was debated for many hours on the Floor of the House. After those debates, it was clear that the charter relates to EU institutions, not to the making of law in this House. It is therefore bizarre that the Conservatives want to repatriate the charter of fundamental rights to Britain, because it applies to the EU institutions. That is a weird policy.

The second power relates to employment, and we all know that the Conservatives wanted to opt out of the social chapter. The question is what chance they have of making that policy stick. The Minister eloquently explained how that would need several countries to have an intergovernmental conference and then unanimity to give Britain an opt-out. If the Conservatives are serious about pursuing that in government, they would not only undermine British interests, but be looking backwards, and they would be unable to influence future policy in the European Union. It would be highly damaging to British interests.

The third area in which the Conservatives wish to repatriate powers is in respect of the whole justice and home affairs agenda, including criminal law. We should take that seriously, because they might be able to do it. The Lisbon treaty subjects all aspects of justice and home affairs to an opt-in. Over the next five years, starting from 1 December this year, the clock will be ticking. After five years, everything in that sphere will become an EU-wide competence and the Government would have to decide whether they wanted to opt in or not. Any future Government would therefore have the power to exclude us from all justice and home affairs matters, but that is not just for five years. Over the next few years, as aspects of the European justice and home affairs legislation are amended-as it certainly will be before the five-year cut-off point-the Government will be able to decide on those specific aspects whether to opt in or not.

That might sound like a technical point, but let us think about what it means in practice. The European arrest warrant, about which we talked earlier, is likely to be amended in the next two years because there have been imperfections and it has not worked perfectly. I am sure that that will have to happen. The next Government will therefore have to take a decision when the amendments are proposed to opt into, or out of, the EAW.

We have heard from Conservatives in the European Parliament and the House that they are fundamentally against the EAW. We have heard from the shadow Home Secretary that he is minded to be against it, and when the leader of the Conservative party was interviewed on the "Andrew Marr Show", he said that he was very much against it too. He told Andrew Marr:

"There are many things in the Lisbon treaty-giving more power over home affairs and justice-that we don't think is right."

Given that the Conservative policy is to repatriate powers on those areas- [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Rayleigh says that he did not say anything about the EAW, but it is slap bang in the middle of the justice and home affairs agenda. If he wants to tell the House what the Conservative position will be on the EAW and whether it will opt back in when given the chance, it would be very helpful. I am sure that Conservative Back Benchers and Conservatives in the European Parliament, who voted against the EAW and believe that it infringes our sovereignty, would be interested to hear about that position. I would welcome it too, because it would move the Conservative party towards a pro-European position and in a sensible direction for the conduct of justice and home affairs. However, I doubt that we will get an answer because the hon. Gentleman and his party want to sit on the fence.

It is not just about the EAW; it is about Europol and Eurojust and all the other things that, as I said in an intervention, are bringing serious criminals to justice. We will be interested to hear whether the hon. Gentleman has an answer to that.

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Mark Francois (Shadow Minister (Europe), Foreign Affairs; Rayleigh, Conservative): rose-

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Edward Davey: I am happy to take the hon. Gentleman's intervention, but I hope that he has some answers to those questions.

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Mark Francois (Shadow Minister (Europe), Foreign Affairs; Rayleigh, Conservative): The hon. Gentleman knows that we have a number of concerns about how the EAW has operated in practice, as does, indeed, the Liberal Democrats' Home Affairs spokesman, Chris Huhne, who gave a speech recently in which he expressed a number of concerns. Will Mr. Davey explain why, if the Liberal Democrats are so in favour of the EAW, as seems to be evident from the line that he has taken this afternoon, they abstained in 2003 when the House voted on whether Britain should sign up?

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Edward Davey: The hon. Gentleman is talking about an Act of Parliament, part of which was the EAW. If he reads the proceedings of the House, he will see that my colleagues and I were very much in favour of the EAW, but we were against other parts of the legislation. We made that clear in the proceedings. We are very different from him and his party because he opposed the EAW. The Conservatives voted against it in the House and the European Parliament, and not because of one or two imperfections; they were against it in principle, just as Mr. Cameron is in principle against justice and home affairs at the European level. They have a lot of explaining to do. Between now and polling day, we will push them to make themselves clear to the British people: will they give British people the protection of the EAW, Europol and Eurojust?

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Robert Goodwill (Shadow Minister, Transport; Scarborough & Whitby, Conservative): The hon. Gentleman talks about serious crime, but is he not aware that in cases such as the one a couple years ago in which some British people were arrested in Greece for spotting aeroplanes, British citizens might be extradited to countries with legal systems in which we have less confidence than our own? The crimes might not be serious; they could be more spurious and difficult-to-understand cases.

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Edward Davey: The hon. Gentleman is right. I could give him three or four examples from different countries, such as the Töben case in Germany and several others in Poland-I believe that the Poles will have a particular constitutional issue to sort out when we consider reforming the EAW.

The Liberal Democrats have argued, in this House and the European Parliament, and against the Conservatives, for measures linked to the EAW at the European level to ensure that British people in court in other EU countries-not just because of the EAW, but perhaps having been arrested while on holiday, working or living in those countries-have better protections and the minimum guarantees of legal rights that do not exist in the EU at the moment. We want to push that case.

The Conservatives, however, have always opposed that approach. I am afraid that their position is completely inconsistent: they complain about the EAW because it does not guarantee those minimum legal rights, but when those rights are proposed, they oppose them. They are in a tricky position. Any future Government will have to answer such questions, not the spurious, theoretical questions about some mythical idea that a future British Government could renegotiate social employment legislation.

Finally, what worries me particularly about the Conservatives' position on Europe is their view on defence policy. I regret the fact that we did not have enough time to debate defence in full in our debates on the Lisbon treaty. Indeed, Conservative colleagues and I complained about that at the time. However, the Conservative defence spokesman, Dr. Fox, has attacked much of the co-operation on defence, particularly the European Defence Agency. My concern about his attacks is that they are factually incorrect. He talks about the European Defence Agency as having a

"supranational role for procurement inside the European Union."-[ Hansard, 23 November 2009; Vol. 501, c. 367.]

He clearly does not understand how the European Defence Agency works. Its whole remit and the framework within which it works are based on unanimity. Even the workings of the board of the European Defence Agency mean that day-to-day matters are decided on the basis of qualified majority voting. However, if a member state objects to them, they can be referred back, so that they are decided on a unanimous vote. That ought to be in the British interest. The idea that the European Defence Agency is a supranational body to which we have surrendered control is simply wrong.

What worries me in practice is that the Conservatives oppose some of the excellent work currently done, albeit on a small scale, by the European Defence Agency. For example, work is being done on something called the helicopter initiative. The Conservatives have rightly criticised the Government's record on helicopters in Afghanistan and other theatres. One of the advantages of the European Defence Agency's helicopter initiative is that it will ensure that some citizens of other member states are properly trained so that they can fly helicopters in theatres such as Afghanistan. The Conservatives' opposition to the European Defence Agency would stop that initiative taking place and thereby prevent us from securing a much needed supply of trained helicopter pilots into Afghanistan from other member states when, interestingly, at other times the Conservatives complain about other member states not pulling their weight. The European Defence Agency and our co-operation on defence are ways to ensure that other member states begin to play a proper role. I am afraid that the Conservative position is completely unfathomable.

Britain gets short-changed in Europe when it fights straw men such as the European Defence Agency, co-operation on crime and so on, which is not in the interests of the British people. I hope that between now and the election the Conservatives will think again, change their position on some of those key issues, and face up to the Eurosceptics in their party and the press. If they do not and if they then take power, as either a majority or a minority Government, with the same approach, that will be hugely damaging to British interests, whether in co-operation on crime, co-operation on the environment or co-operation on the economy. That is a matter of huge significance to this country's future. Let us hope that the Conservatives think again.

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